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Author Topic: Latest Issues to trial  (Read 291 times)

daveparish

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Re: Latest Issues to trial
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2021, 08:20:36 PM »
So a Swiss Pike block is fighting Landscknechts and a tiny scuzzy crossbow unit breaks nearby. The KAB is an S and so the gigantic Superior Swiss block leaps backwards as though stung and leaves combat? Remember this will happen at random (because every dice has one in six S) and will happen at an equal rate to a Poor Unit and to a Superior or Exceptional unit (because every dice has the same number of S's). I'm not quite sure what this represents historically?

nikgaukroger

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Re: Latest Issues to trial
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2021, 05:34:44 AM »
So a Swiss Pike block is fighting Landscknechts and a tiny scuzzy crossbow unit breaks nearby. The KAB is an S and so the gigantic Superior Swiss block leaps backwards as though stung and leaves combat? Remember this will happen at random (because every dice has one in six S) and will happen at an equal rate to a Poor Unit and to a Superior or Exceptional unit (because every dice has the same number of S's). I'm not quite sure what this represents historically?

As with drive backs from shooting this nicely illustrates a limitation of using the "S" to drive something - whilst simple it is independent of quality.

With a KaB for a breaking unit you could, however, say it causes a fall back if the breaking unit is equal or better quality perhaps?
"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

daveparish

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Re: Latest Issues to trial
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2021, 12:13:15 PM »

As with drive backs from shooting this nicely illustrates a limitation of using the "S" to drive something - whilst simple it is independent of quality.

With a KaB for a breaking unit you could, however, say it causes a fall back if the breaking unit is equal or better quality perhaps?

Yes - anything linked to damage will automatically adjust (for example HFP in shooting or Superior in combat will cause more damage and so your subsequent effect (Drive Backs or disengages or whatever) will automatically happen to you more often when you are fighting good troops. You don't need a special rule to say when under HFP fire or when fighting Superiors. Whereas if you use S the effect will happen at the same rate whether the receiving unit is Poor or is Exceptional and whether it is being hit with black dice or yellow dice. This is why S is not a good thing to link to and why all these additions to the S rule get suggested (to get round the initial problem). For me it is the difference between elegant design and clunky design.

PS Alasdair - hope this doesn't sound harsh but I'm putting it bluntly because it feels like our core point isn't being listened to (...so hopefully no offence)

alasdair

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Re: Latest Issues to trial
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2021, 06:43:11 PM »
The quality re falling back is an interesting one and one i will look at in detail after yatton as the the early period is my next thing to look at. At yatton we will try S & Skulls so firepower becomes an issue but we'll see if it is enough. Re the keil example I agree it is extreme and will look but i dont feel is such an issue at Yatton so will play and see how feels. Plus you are all listened to but I also have plenty of people talk to me who are not on the forum. I do feel the current meg system is to slow for Reg where essentially everyone is shooting, assuming an average of 6 P&S vs 6 P&S thats 12 sets of firing per go and working out the numbers your opponent  double checking etc some discussion about it, my rough calculations was it added 30 minutes to the game and we did test it. So I am not in favour of that, that said i appreciate the limitations of the current method, so am still searching for the perfect method, as i have said at yatton we'll try S & Skulls, and see how successful that is. This will bring it more in line with meg for example you are as like to get an S (shatter) whatever dice you are on but with skulls counting that increases the changes.

We'll keep working on it, and get there

cheers

Alasdair


daveparish

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Re: Latest Issues to trial
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2021, 07:24:08 PM »
I think I could simplify the damage based system for you quite easily, if you want. But I also think perhaps we ought to think first about what you want a Driven Back effect for? What does it represent? Same question for this latest KAB-stimulated break off?

bahdahbum

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Re: Latest Issues to trial
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2021, 07:48:17 PM »
Interesting

nikgaukroger

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Re: Latest Issues to trial
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2021, 09:35:38 PM »
... working out the numbers your opponent  double checking etc some discussion about it,

Not sure why you are assuming that ReG players will be slower than MeG ones and needing to do those things. MeG games where the players are used to shooting (which one assumes ReG players will get pretty quickly) have the calculation done very smoothly and quickly and no need for time spent double checking and discussing. No doubt such would be needed as players get used to it, but not thereafter.
"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

nikgaukroger

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Re: Latest Issues to trial
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2021, 09:40:08 PM »
To state the obvious the bit that will add time compared to MeG is moving figures back of course.
"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

bahdahbum

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Re: Latest Issues to trial
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2021, 09:20:57 AM »
So a Swiss Pike block is fighting Landscknechts and a tiny scuzzy crossbow unit breaks nearby. The KAB is an S and so the gigantic Superior Swiss block leaps backwards as though stung and leaves combat? Remember this will happen at random (because every dice has one in six S) and will happen at an equal rate to a Poor Unit and to a Superior or Exceptional unit (because every dice has the same number of S's). I'm not quite sure what this represents historically?

It might represents what happened in battles : confusion

Never forget we see it from far above, not from terrain and also you are in an image d'Epinal as we say in french ! the fearless swiss pikes but that could be stopped and/or confused for a little bit of time before going back into the fight ! You know all those things that happen and that are not written in details such as the franch guard beaten by duth militia at Waterloo ..Should not have happened but it did ! Also I have had some extensive experience in large LRAP battles 2000 people on the field, no modern communication and strange things happens so why not ! Also could we let people try the rules and have their own ideas and decide and not us be a jury of 3 to 4 people discussing endlessly on the same subject ?

daveparish

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Re: Latest Issues to trial
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2021, 09:40:55 AM »
Also could we let people try the rules and have their own ideas and decide and not us be a jury of 3 to 4 people discussing endlessly on the same subject ?

The idea of a Forum is to have an exchange of ideas isn't it? The only reason this keeps coming up is because perfectly valid feedback is being ignored and dismissed. It would be fair enough to say "we know this idea has flaws but we're going with it anyway" but some of the answers on here don't address or even just misunderstand what is being said - so we (quite patiently, I think) explain ourselves again.  At some point to keep on saying let's wait for game testing (when we have posted detailed game tests) is just stalling and hoping we will go away. There aren't that many people contributing to this Forum anyway and if you took away that "jury of three or four people" it would look pretty thin.

bahdahbum

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Re: Latest Issues to trial
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2021, 10:23:14 AM »
Yes a forum is a place to discuss but endlessly the same people discuss it so could we please wait for some tournaments and other feed back ?

The feed-back - perfectly valid - was positive to the "S" system , you seem to have another point of view so could we all shut up and wait till there are a few tournaments to have some more results ! ( and that includes ME who will shut up )

Don McHugh

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Re: Latest Issues to trial
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2021, 05:49:37 PM »
I have only just returned to the rules recently and have yet to complete a game without making basic mistakes. I have entered the Yatton weekend to hopefully get a better understanding of where the rules are. Until I have that understanding I don't feel confident to express an opinion.

I know it is a major task, but an updated full set of rules would help greatly.

Don

alasdair

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Re: Latest Issues to trial
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2021, 11:23:03 AM »
Dave how would you simplfy

cheers

Alasdair

alasdair

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Re: Latest Issues to trial
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2021, 11:55:13 AM »
Just so players know at Yatton we'll trial S plus Skulls push back this  does deal with some of the major concern from other players which is that heavier firepower does not push players back, but we'll see.

So three white or black dice have a 1 in 6 chance per die chance of pushing a player back 1 BW
three green or yellow dice have a 2 in 6 chance per die chance of pushing a player back 1 BW
three red dice have a 3 in 6 chance per die chance of pushing a player back 1 BW

this seems to take in account heavier fire and is simple

cheers

Alasdair