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Author Topic: 1525 Charles the Vth in Italy vs Jacobite in Scotland 1690  (Read 98 times)

StephenB

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1525 Charles the Vth in Italy vs Jacobite in Scotland 1690
« on: June 24, 2020, 03:06:38 AM »
Hi All, I decide to challenge Andrews Jacobites with a Charles the Vth list. The Jacobites have realy sufferred facing contemporary list with a preponderance of firepower so I wanted to kmow how a short range shooter melee army went.

Charles the Vth (Battle of Pavia)
Mounted
2 x 4 Jintes Prot Ave L/S Javlin AFP Sword Evade Scouts
1 x 6 German MAA Front Rank Sup Heavy Arm Close Chg Lance Expert Swd / Rear Ranks Avg Prot Close Sword (2/4 Deep Formation)
1 x 4 Mounted Arquebusiers Unp Ave L/S Mtd Shot AFP Combat Shy
1 x 4 Bande Nere Unp Sup L/S Mtd Shot AFP Sword
Infantry
1 x 12 Landsknechte Front Rank Ave Heavy Arm Close Pike Pike Elan / Rear Ranks Ave Prot Close Pike Pike Elan KEIL
3 x 6 Colunela Prot Sup Close Arq AFP Pike Expert Swd Elan Manga Steady COLUNELA
1 x 6 Detached Spanish Manga Unprot Sup C/L/S Arq AFP Polearm Exp Swd BANDE
1 x 6 Upgraded Spanish Arquebusiers Unproy Sup L/S Arq HFP
Artillery
1 x 3 Medium Artillery Unp Ave Loose Med Arty LFP

12 Units with a Break of 7

The jacobites
Mounted
2 x 4 Jacobite Horse Unp Ave Loose Trot Pistol Melee Pistol Aggressive
Infantry
1 x 9 Clan Skirmishers Unp Ave L/S MM AFP Sword IRREGULAR
1 x 6 Irish Prot Ave Close MM AFP Pike Pike Elan Shoot & Charge PIKE AND SHOT
6 x 9 Warriors Unp Ave Loose MM LFP Sword Aggressive Shoot and Charge IRREGULAR
3 x 9 Warriors Unp Sup Loose MM LFP Sword Aggressive Shoot and Charge IRREGULAR

13 Units with a Break of 7

So Andrew's Ledgendary General decided to be attacker but I got better (and More) cards or terrain and scouting. This meant the teraing was on the edges of the battlefield where it would not inconvienience my Close formation troops. I deployed with the 2 Jintes on the left The Infantry in the Centre with the Guns next to the Right Flank and the Bande Nere Genmans and Arqubusiers on my Right Flank. Andrew deployed with nothing on his Right Flank The Scouts Skirmishers and Cav on his Left Flank and his infantry in the centre in depth with the Superior units in the centre of his line. This is where he had his first issue. he had wanted to have the Irish right at the edge of this Left Flank but did not leave enough space so the where squeezed between 2 of his warriors meaning he had 3 units deep at this point with almost no space between each unit.

So The game start with my guns forcing the front warrior unit back thru the Irish and the trailing Warriors as ther was no space for them to retire. This happened a couple of times until he seperated the units out. Both Armies moved to close with the Jintes Doubling in the open and My other cavalry wing also doubling to hold his flank back Note the Mtd Arq where in skirmish formation. Round 2 saw the Geman Cav Charging one of his Cav and the other Jacobite cav charging the Mtd Arq who evaded away. The Jintes continude to advance to Flank the infantry Line and the 2 infantry lines continued to advance. The Artillery continued to slow the oppossing units. Turn 3 saw the infantry continue to close with the jacobites shooting at the Skirmish screen of the Colunelas and the Spanish Arqubusiers who where in Skirmish formation in front of the landsneckts, the Jintes where now past the infantry lines and Geman MAA where chewing througe 1 Jacobite Cav while the othe still chased the Mounted Arq. Turn 4 saw charges all along the line with the advantage going to the Keil and Colunela's. Turn 5 Saw a Warrior unit charge my detached Manga who where in close formation and A Jintes unit flank charge the Warrior unit facing the landsneckts, the warriors broke in melee and the Jintes persued into the next unit down the line. My Bande Nere charged a unit of Warriors and the Gemans broke the Cav they where fighting.

The next 2 turns saw 2 more warrior units break and an accumulation of casualties down the line. Andrew called time down 4 to 0. My superior troops where winning the individual fights but as they where smaller units the accumulated losses would have cost me units in the next couple of turns. Still and interesting victory for Charles the Vth.

Andrew will comment later as he has the list of questions.

alasdair

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Re: 1525 Charles the Vth in Italy vs Jacobite in Scotland 1690
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2020, 10:56:09 AM »
Thank you

I get my first games in at the end of the week

cheers

Alasdair

awat03

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Re: 1525 Charles the Vth in Italy vs Jacobite in Scotland 1690
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2020, 01:53:31 AM »
There were a couple of questions that came out of this game.

1) Driven back- does a unit that is driven back cause a KAB test in friendly troops it is driven back through? we played it doesn't but it was not really clear from the rules.

2) Early German cavalry formation. it is 2 bases wide by 3 ranks deep. The front rank is heavy knights with charging lancer and the rear ranks are not. if the unit is set up as the deep formation does the charging lancer front rank gain the shatter ability? The change on the 2 page sheet of amendments says that charging lancers need to be in a 1 rank deep line to gain the shatter ability but it is only the front rank of this formation that has the charging lancer.  We played it that it does get the shatter as it is only the front rank that has the charging lancer characteristic and so fulfilled the requirement to be in one line.

3) M2,M9 and M10 moves- if these are done after a skirmish or run away move is there a limit on how far they can go? In MeG, they were limited to a 2 BW move but there is no restriction on the move distance on the ReG qrs.

4) chargers not contacting- on the 2 page summary 0f new rules it mentions that a charging unit that fails to contact due to being driven back can do a M2, M9 or M10 move in the following movement phase. Can any unit which fails to contact for whatever reason (driven back, enemy troops skirmishing/running away, a charge target moving first and getting out of the way) do one of these moves in the next movement phase.


Game reflections

Points- tribal troops seem to be expensive compared to what they can do on the table. They are heavily restricted in movement abilities, can't double move and cost just as much as opposing troops. In this case they were more expensive then some of Stephens troops. Craig has found the same thing when running Tupis, a tribal based army is not big enough to take the hits dished out by enemy firepower and still have enough troops to engage in hand to hand combat.

target in 3 ranks- this probably sounds like self interest but is a dice upgrade really justified for musket/arquebus armed troops. It can end up with opposing troops shooting on yellow or even red dice and by the time you get into melee combat you have lost the back rank and can only afford tom lose about another 4 or 5 wounds and the units rout.

Driven back- it seems to easy to drive troops back at long range, Did a couple of long range cannon shots really force units back. I understand it happening at short range but long range musketry seems to be stretching credibility. I like the ideas Geoff had about giving cannons a deadly and long range to mitigate the driven back effects.

On a general note I think that a lot of people did what we did and think of the rules as MeG with guns. It has taken a few games to get out of this mindset and to understand the mechanics better and we are enjoying the games mainly but these 3 things mentioned above seem to be the main sticking points for us.

alasdair

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Re: 1525 Charles the Vth in Italy vs Jacobite in Scotland 1690
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2020, 10:49:36 AM »
Cheers

1) Yes

2) Yes

3) Good point and will look at

4) Yes

Thank you for all these, I have put a thread on factors up and will add these to my notes.

awat03

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Re: 1525 Charles the Vth in Italy vs Jacobite in Scotland 1690
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2020, 10:06:13 PM »
1) is it yes they cause a KAB test or yes we played it correctly?

alasdair

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Re: 1525 Charles the Vth in Italy vs Jacobite in Scotland 1690
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2020, 10:40:55 AM »
Yes it causes a KAB but you are right it isnt clear in the rules, will make it so

cheers

Alasdair

StephenB

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Re: 1525 Charles the Vth in Italy vs Jacobite in Scotland 1690
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2020, 02:13:45 AM »
Alistair,

Why have you allowed chargers who fail to contact to perform a second move, this change negates the evade ability since the charger can close to point blank with the second move on a white card while the evader is locked in place since it restricted to an advance, turn on the spot or turn 180 and move -1 for either a yellow or red card.

I have also seen this ability used with a swiss keil who charged with a wheel light infantry that avoided by rule and then had a second 4 mu move to get behind the entire line of the opponets infantry.

Why have you supercharged chargers in this period?   

alasdair

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Re: 1525 Charles the Vth in Italy vs Jacobite in Scotland 1690
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2020, 11:43:54 AM »
To be fair as with anything happy to look at the reason was if an attacker was driven back by fire to allow them to be able to get back into position for another charge if they wanted to, is now restricted  to 2BW but if that is still to much happy to look at again.

StephenB

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Re: 1525 Charles the Vth in Italy vs Jacobite in Scotland 1690
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2020, 12:43:33 AM »
While it makes sense for Cavalry charging infantry with the 2 MU restriction when Cav charges Cav in most cases there will be very little shooting involved and this will be generally 2 white dice so even if both hit this will only be a 1mu pushback.

alasdair

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Re: 1525 Charles the Vth in Italy vs Jacobite in Scotland 1690
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2020, 01:02:06 PM »
Getting some games this weekend so will look at it again

cheers

Alasdair