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Author Topic: My remaining thoughts...  (Read 399 times)

SHALL-REG

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My remaining thoughts...
« on: April 21, 2020, 07:11:16 AM »
Just a few bits from me as we go through final games and refinement

1. De-cluttering

As we approach the publication it is good to check that everything there is really needed and try to make as tidy as possible. Did this with Mortem et Gloriam.   My view is always to start with everything that gives you maximum character and then thin back.

I would observe there is quite a complex mix of organisations, weapons, characteristics and it would be good to simplify troop types somehow.  Doing the army builder there are bits that can confuse. Such as Pike&Shot? Do I put pike in weapons and do we really it twice? We need to gradually make it as transparent and intuitive as possible.

Points balancing

The rules are now at the stage where this is really meaningful. As you play gather a list of what you feel are bargains (- or --) and overpriced (+ or ++).  That list form a wide range of players is the best way to get the prices settled enough for launch. 

Commanded Shot
I really think these need to be some sort of attachment to Horse rather than separate. Many ways it can be done.  I rather liked this:
a) Have some foot figures with the Horse - so 4 horse and 2 foot. 
b) Use these to extend the horse line with foot in between or behind and shooting.
c) These shoot normally so the horse get 2 shooting dice.
d) Foot bases disappear after first round of melee combat, but are not losses on the UG.So a sort of temporary characteristic.
e) UG slowed by 1BW and loses foot figures if it charges, countercharges, intercepts or pursues
Felt good to me and gives the look and feel on the tabletop.

A more abstract version would be just to allow the cav to shoot 1 colour dice down and have a s ingle foot behind as a market - like integral shooters in Mortem et Gloriam.  But the above has more flavour I feel.

Firepower vs. base cost

As this period is the emergence of firepower I suspect we should have the base costs lower than at present and the missile weapon higher and more spread.  There should be a small gap between bow and arquebus but then big ones to MM and FM. Again in feel terms.  With the impact in the rules matching that. So we should think of rule/pts switches that in combination give that type of effect.  Also helps as superior for foot is not as important as for horse due to the % of time spent shooting and fighting.

Magna and Pacto

We should create both of these and its very easy to do so now we are at 3W a base.  Magna to allow 28mm with foot and mounted in 4s.  Pacto works - tried it - by having all in 2s or 1s and close combat types in 3s. Will give us an easy entrance for the rules.  We can do pre-printed armies as in the compendium.  See that when out.  Need names that fit the period for Maximus (full size). Magna (big figures, Pacto (compact).  Open to offers.

Overall it is feeling great! Went from not liking how it felt for ECW at the beginning of this last phase to loving it by the end.  Great stuff and have mentally planned with PSC to get them out early 2021.

nikgaukroger

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Re: My remaining thoughts...
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2020, 11:34:05 AM »

Commanded Shot
I really think these need to be some sort of attachment to Horse rather than separate. Many ways it can be done.  I rather liked this:
a) Have some foot figures with the Horse - so 4 horse and 2 foot. 
b) Use these to extend the horse line with foot in between or behind and shooting.
c) These shoot normally so the horse get 2 shooting dice.
d) Foot bases disappear after first round of melee combat, but are not losses on the UG.So a sort of temporary characteristic.
e) UG slowed by 1BW and loses foot figures if it charges, countercharges, intercepts or pursues
Felt good to me and gives the look and feel on the tabletop.

A more abstract version would be just to allow the cav to shoot 1 colour dice down and have a s ingle foot behind as a market - like integral shooters in Mortem et Gloriam.  But the above has more flavour I feel.


Well as I have been advocating this sort of approach from the start it gets my support  8)

Two points I'd make initially:

1. I don't think that the characteristic should disappear after the first round of melee combat - IIRC at Breitenfeld the Swedish cavalry on the right wing (with commanded shot of course) were charged something like 7 times; also the description of how it worked justifies their continued presence as long as the cavalry aren't broken or leave them behind.

2. Movement - the commanded shot are formed musketeer bodies operating within the gaps between squadrons in their normal way, there is no reason they should move faster than other musketeers (3BW).
"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith

martymagnificent

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Re: My remaining thoughts...
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2020, 11:52:13 AM »
Lots of interesting stuff for shooting in the QRS.

Mounted shooting seems to have taken a bit of a hit with the minus for mounted firearm, the minus for shooting at mounted (its usual target) and the new armour effects on bow. Makes me wonder about what you are saying about the cost of bases compared to shooting capabilities (especially with bases going to 3W).

I dislike the CC formation even more now that I see all shooting gets a bonus against three ranks or more. I also just don't think it likely many of the units that now have this classification necessarily used deep formations.

On the simplification of classification for units like pike and shot, I actually think the classification of the Asian mixed units with just impact polearm is simple and gets the right feel. I wonder if simply giving Pike and Shot impact pike only and nothing else would work.

Martin

SHALL-REG

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Re: My remaining thoughts...
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2020, 11:53:13 AM »
Happy on former. I am note expert enough on them to be sure.

Latter is optional.
The foot speeds are not limits bit ratter formation movement.
So was seeing these are potential Fleet of Foot.

But ok with 3 or 4Bw movement by me.

Si

SHALL-REG

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Re: My remaining thoughts...
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2020, 11:54:09 AM »
Let's create separate streams out of this for each topic or it will get very confusing.

Si

alasdair

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Re: My remaining thoughts...
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2020, 05:44:51 PM »
Lots of interesting stuff for shooting in the QRS.

Mounted shooting seems to have taken a bit of a hit with the minus for mounted firearm, the minus for shooting at mounted (its usual target) and the new armour effects on bow. Makes me wonder about what you are saying about the cost of bases compared to shooting capabilities (especially with bases going to 3W).

I dislike the CC formation even more now that I see all shooting gets a bonus against three ranks or more. I also just don't think it likely many of the units that now have this classification necessarily used deep formations.

On the simplification of classification for units like pike and shot, I actually think the classification of the Asian mixed units with just impact polearm is simple and gets the right feel. I wonder if simply giving Pike and Shot impact pike only and nothing else would work.

Martin

Thanks Martin, yes lets continue to look at the CCU formation and look to achieve the best we can it might be with the additional wounds it just becomes the same same shape as a pike and shot, I was just trying to give more survivability as they are mostly in the earlier period and deeper than a bow or arquebus screen.

Re impact pike I worry this would make them to vulnerable to mounted in melee, but happy to look at it again, it feels very right for my chinese but happy to keep an eye on

cheers

Alasdair

leadman

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Re: My remaining thoughts...
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2020, 06:44:52 PM »
The new builder has problems.  The first input line (14) puts an "x" in the points per base column when "expert swordsmen" is entered in the melee combat weapon column.  the rest of the input lines put a "0" in the points per base column when expert swordsmen is entered.

I have some questions about armor grading on the later Japanese lists but will address those in the correct section of the forum.

Regards,
Dannie

alasdair

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Re: My remaining thoughts...
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2020, 09:36:07 AM »
Yes we have picked this up but only applying to some versions of excel, Simon is going to have a good look at this next week, till then use mounted pistol same cost and does work

cheers

Alasdair
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 03:48:40 PM by alasdair »

leadman

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Re: My remaining thoughts...
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2020, 05:39:09 PM »
Yes we have picked this up but only applying to some versions of excel, Simon is going to have a good look at this next week, till then use expert swordsmen

cheers

Alasdair

I tried Libre 6.3.5 and have the same issue.  I don't know if this helps, but I first entered "expert swordsmen".  I then filled in the other columns without there appearing to be any problem until I enter a number in the UG# column.  An "x" appeared in the points per base column.  The x goes away if I either remove the number in the UG# column, or remove expert swordsmen. 

We were going to test the new changes today, but the builder problems make it harder to do.

Regards,
Dannie

SHALL-REG

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Re: My remaining thoughts...
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2020, 07:48:37 PM »
yes that is useful.
Means and If statement is not working.

S

Nigel

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Re: My remaining thoughts...
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2020, 08:25:51 AM »
On CCU endless rounds of discussion...

If the move is to not have it as a separate, can we do a representation with a mounted unit being a mixture of base types. Just be nice to visually show the CCU as models in someway, not just a stat you have to remember.